Josh Waitzkin’s Unique Approach To Learning

Josh Waitzkin

Before turning 30 Josh Waitzkin was a world champion twice over. Labeled as a chess prodigy, he won multiple world championships. After retiring from chess at an age when most people are starting their careers, Josh started practicing Tai Chi. What started as a meditative exercise quickly grew. A few years later Josh would become a world champion push hands competitor, beating Taiwanese fighters who had been training since childhood. Josh is clearly operating in a different arena than most, and this is the story of his unique approach to learning and mastery.

Lessons Learned on the Chess Board

A chess champion is a combination of skill and thousands of hours of practice

Josh Waitzkin was born to play chess. Players with a decade of experience began losing to Josh after he had been practicing just several months. There’s something to be said about innate talent, and when it came to chess Josh had the goods. However, talent does not deliver success without hard work. When you learn Josh’s story you’re struck by how hard he worked to master the game.

  1. Josh deliberately studied in adverse conditions. He played loud music in his bedroom or went to smokey bars, conditioning himself to perform in all environments. For every skill you can simulate difficult conditions to make performing under pressure easier.
  2. Under the guidance of his first coach Josh studied positions of reduced complexity. For example, three pieces on the chess board instead of the full entourage of thirty-two. Every art form has base principles that must be internalized. These are more important than flashy tricks or techniques, learning them first makes it easier to master complex principles later.
  3. Chess tournaments are grueling, games can last for hours. While other parents and coaches attempted to teach lessons after each match, Josh’s dad took him outside to play catch. He understood that recovery was more important than squeezing in another lesson. If you’re struggling with a difficult task, take a fifteen minute break, forget everything, relax. You won’t lose your edge, you’ll come back ready to act.

Beating Lifelong Practitioners at their Own Game

Josh practicing Tai Chi, the exercise that push hands is based on

On his path towards becoming a world champion at Push Hands, Josh won matches against opponents who had thousands more hours of practice than him. What allowed him to do so? Let’s look at a few answers to that question. Most of these insights come from Josh’s book: The Art of Learning.

1. Drawing Smaller Circles

The process by which a skill is internalized in small steps. Josh uses the example of a boxer learning a straight job. At first he requires a certain number of inches (say ten) to deliver all the power of the punch. However, with time and practice (years’ worth), he’s able to refine the punch. Eventually he can deliver a potent blow with half an inch of space.

This is the art of refining a process and it’s applicable to nearly everything. As you look at a skill that you’ve learned to a high level you’ll be able to see how you’ve “drawn smaller circles” over time, making a complex task simple.

2. Learning from Novel Experiences

In the beginning you can learn from almost any experience. However, to continue growing you must continually seek novel experiences. For example, if a basketball player does nothing but practice free throws he may get very good at it. But to gain a high level of competency at the game he’ll also need to work on three pointers, dribbling, defense and situational awareness.

Josh learned the power of the novel experience when he broke his arm during a push hands competition. He was forced to practice with only one hand. While difficult it gave him that novel experience required to grow. In time, he learned how to control opponents with one arm, a large advantage. When learning a skill we can ask: how can I get new, novel experiences?

3. Investing in Loss

Investing in loss requires working with more skilled opponents

Learning a skill means failing. Whether you’re studying a language or becoming a world champion push hands competitor, you’ll have to invest in loss. In Josh’s case that meant purposefully skirmishing with opponents who were better than him. He spent months getting tossed to the mat, manhandled by more experienced practitioners.

This was painful but it allowed Josh to cut down on the learning curve. By training with superior opponents he was able to cram decades of practice into years. To improve faster we should seek out situations where a loss is likely. It might hurt the ego but the lessons will be more effective.

4. Practice, Practice, Practice 

Whether it was chess or push hands, Josh would study several hours a day. This is the foundation upon which his success is built. Without practice there cannot be improvement. In our society we lionize the results but rarely look at the effort behind them. As Ray Kroc (the founder of McDonald’s) says:

I was an overnight success all right, but 30 years is a long, long night.

5. The Mental Game Determines the Outcome

Speaking about chess, Josh comments on the importance of having a proper mental state.

Everyone at a high level has a huge amount of chess understanding, and much of what separates the great from the very good is deep presence, relaxation of the conscious mind, which allows the unconscious to flow unhindered.

This can apply to any discipline. Most top competitors have a comparable technical understanding of the game, the result is often determined by their mental state. Who can stay cool under pressure, recover from a mistake, and find the energy to fight when the body is depleted. To become world class one must focus just as much on their mental state as their practical knowledge.

Why You Should Invest in Becoming an Effective Autodidact

Learning “how to learn” may be one of the most efficient uses of your time. If you can learn a skill 25% faster than your neighbor, that can save you thousands of hours compiled over a lifetime. Invest in loss, seek out novel experiences, and practice every day. Josh Waitzkin is a world class performer of the highest order and his advice is invaluable. The best resource to discover more about Josh is his book: The Art of Learning. It tells the story of Josh’s rise to prominence, how it affected him and the lessons he learned from mastering two unique skills. In addition, Josh has done several interviews on the Tim Ferriss Show.

Meditation: the Habit of Millionaires

Meditation

Tim Ferriss is an unflinching advocate of meditation. In his book, Tools of Titansa collection of practical advice from highly successful people, Tim mentions that:

More than 80% of the world-class performers I’ve interviewed meditate in the mornings in some fashion.

“If you just sit and observe, you will see how restless your mind is” – Steve Jobs

That collection of world-class performers includes billionaires, New York Times best sellers, A-list movie stars, professional athletes and other high achievers. It’s rare to find one thing that so many people have in common, but there it is; meditation. Sitting quietly for 20 minutes and observing your thoughts. Transcendental meditation is popular and involves repeating a mantra. There are also Apps, like Headspace, which promise to introduce you to meditation in an easy-to-digest fashion.

I’m sure these practices are excellent, however, when I meditate I keep it simple. I cross my legs and focus on my breathing. I don’t have a set time, I go for as long as I feel like it. New York Times bestselling author and renowned marketer Seth Godin practices a similar routine, which he describes in an interview.

It’s sloppy, it works. It’s nothing worth writing home about. I’ll just sit, and I’ll close my eyes, and I’ll breathe. And when I’ve had enough of that, I’ll go back to what I was doing.

Easy, simple, beneficial. After meditating for a while it’s difficult to imagine life without it. Meditation helps to quiet your brain and lets you think more efficiently. This becomes critical as you take on larger roles and have to make more consequential decisions. If you feel like you don’t have time to meditate, consider this zen proverb.

You should sit in meditation for twenty minutes every day – unless you’re too busy; then you should sit for an hour.

Still not convinced? Head over to Fortune to find out Why Tim Ferriss Believes Meditation is the Key to Success. Better yet, start meditating today. Do five minutes a day for the first month, ten minutes a day for the second, then the third month do twenty minutes a day. By the end of ninety days you’ll understand why so many influential people accredit their success to a daily meditation practice.

Andre Agassi on Radical Honesty and Success

I’ve written about Andre Agassi because of the radical honesty he displayed in his autobiography: OpenThe foremost example of his commitment to the truth is a recounting of his brief stint with crystal meth. Until the book was published there were a handful of people who knew about it. Agassi could have kept this incident secret and he still would have had a fantastic book. But he included the story of himself at his lowest and that took real guts.

Agassi voluntarily admitted his drug usage, knowing well the controversy it would cause

I love this example because honesty is something I strive towards. At every moment I seek to act and speak in a way which is in accordance with the truth. I’ve got a long, long way to go but this is the ideal. It’s amazing to see Agassi, a man with so much to lose, willing to expose himself to so much criticism in the name of honesty.

The Drive of a Winner

When you read the book you learn about a man who is driven to succeed. Agassi repeatedly states “I hate tennis” and people assume that he’s joking. He’s not, there is no passion for the game. But tennis is his best talent and he’s handcuffed to it. Without tennis Agassi would have no purpose, in every other area of life he admits to being average at best. And so he practices ferociously. He loses key tournaments and is harder on himself than the critics are. Even though he loathes the game he’s determined to excel at it. His attitude is similar to that of Muhammad Ali,

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.’

Agassi repeatedly demonstrates that anything worth having is worth sweating for. In every activity, no matter the level of passion, there will be things you don’t like doing. This is natural. Agassi leads by example as he overcomes numerous obstacles in order to achieve his dreams.

Agassi After Tennis

Agassi with some of the children from his foundation

Agassi’s account of his final game of tennis is powerful. He plays like a young man trying to prove himself, as if the match will determine his entire tennis career. After it’s finished he lays in the locker room, incapacitated, in awe of the effort he gave on the court.

Having proven himself to the world, Agassi could have easily retired with his millions of dollars and awesome wife. Instead, he opened the Andre Agassi Foundation for EducationThe foundation is responsible for a beautiful charter school in Las Vegas and positive educational change around the country. That it’s raised over $180 million dollars speaks to its massive success.

Like everyone, Agassi is human. He had a tough childhood, he sunk low enough that he considered meth to be a viable option and then he blatantly lied after failing a drug test. However, in time Agassi grew and developed the courage to open himself to the world. This was a bold move and I have tremendous respect for him. Pick up a copy of Open or even better, get the audio book. It’s long but I found myself wishing it was even longer, it’s that good.

The Reading Habits of 10 Millionaires and Billionaires

The Reading Habits of the ultra successful

The correlation between reading and wealth is well established. Whether you’re a hedge fund manager or a YouTube celebrity, books can help you to reach higher and stay at the top longer. Let’s look at the reading habits of 10 millionaires and billionaires.

  1. M.J. Demarco is a self-made millionaire and author of the book: The Millionaire Fastlane. In that book he talks about the importance of reading and suggests that a book a week is a good target to set. He also hosts a recommended bookshelf on his website.
  2. The motivational speaker Zig Ziglar claimed to read three hours a day, despite his tight schedule. Rory Vaden talked about this on his podcast when he interviewed Zig’s son, Tom Ziglar.
  3. Brandon Carter, the internet celebrity of massive muscular proportions, says: “I read 2 hours everyday. This habit is responsible for the majority of my success. I don’t know many rich people who don’t read a lot, but every poor person I know has an “X-Box” on his Instagram
  4. Warren Buffet claims to read 500 pages a day. He’s stated that he devotes about 80% of his time to reading. Perhaps it isn’t a coincidence that he’s one of the richest men in the world.
  5. Mark Cuban, another successful billionaire, reads 3 hours a day. That adds up to about 1,000 hours a year. Say the average book takes 5 hours to read, that means Cuban is reading 200 books a year.
  6. The man who unleashed Microsoft onto the world, Bill Gates, reads 50 books a year. The result? At the time of this writing he is currently the wealthiest person in the world with a cool $78,000,000,000.
  7. In an interview he did on his podcast with Ramit Sethi, New York Times best-selling author, Tim Ferriss, says that he reads 3 to 4 books a week. That adds up to 150 to 200 books a year.
  8. In 2015 Mark Zuckerberg pledged to a read a book every two weeks. While this may be less ambitious than other billionaires on this list, some books on his list are long and complex. Like Sapiens which has become a hit in Silicon Valley.
  9. Danny Gilbert, self-made billionaire and owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers, reads one to two hours a day.
  10. You may not have heard of Arthur Blank, but you’ve definitely heard of the store that he co-founded: Home Depot. Blank reads two hours a day and has amassed a current fortune of $1,300,000,000.

Not sure where to start? Check out my article, 33 Books to Read Before You Die. Personally, I read about a book a week. That’s less than these billionaires read but more than the average person reads in a dozen years. You can keep up with my current reading list here.

The Wild World of Frank Yang

Frank Yang

Frank Yang is an artist, free in a way that many are not. He calmly absorbs social pressure that would collapse most. In America he visits Costco and eats a raw fish while customers watch. In Toronto he walks through a public square in a thong with a serene expression. He was recognized by the media for pulling a mattress into a side street and fucking, or pretending to fuck, his girlfriend. Faking this level of indifference is impossible. The tranquil look on Frank’s face, while dozens stare, reflects an enlightened detachment.

The homeless and insane are detached from social norms, but Frank is neither. His body reflects years of training. He plays the violin masterfully. His videos are the work of someone with artistry in the marrow. In a word, if I could hang out with one person in the world, it would be Frank Yang. Let’s look at the YouTube comments from one of his most popular videos.

Was that not the most beautiful 11 minutes of my life? not sure… must watch again just to make sure.

I Love this Guy! The video title should be “The Art of setting your mind free”

This is genius level shit. Fuck the haters, criticize all you want Frank Yang is both a physical and a spiritual beast. 

My god, this gentleman is pure insanity.

This is fucked. You have an extremely disturbing and gifted mind dude

Blowing the minds of the people has never been so much fun

Frank is a smoothie of insanity, talent and genius. On his Instagram account photos are enhanced with captivating descriptions. Some are akin to mini blog posts. Despite his 55,000 followers, Frank frequently replies to comments. His answers are smart and articulate.

To contrast, take someone like Zyzz (deceased). Ripped, beautiful, abnormal. However, his attitude appears one dimensional in comparison to Frank’s. Whereas Zyzz shoots videos of himself flexing, Frank prefers wide angle shots of him doing squats on top of a dildo or lifting with condoms on his fingers because of the slutty weights. It’s fucking ridiculous and absurd. It’s also beautiful. 

We’re in an age of political correctness and people are scared to speak their minds. Free expression is not encouraged, even if we give it lip service. Frank is an antidote. He does and says whatever the fuck he wants. His videos make it clear: he does not care what you think. In explanation of his massive physique, he states,

The body is the shell that I build to wrap around my consciousness, that’s always trying to cause chaos. And the tighter and harder this protection shell is, the weirder I can become.

To understand Frank it’s useful to see where he’s coming from. Read Spiritual Enlightenmentwhich I bought on his recommendation. It’s the most jarring book about spirituality that I’ve ever come across but it’s a necessary book. It will challenge you to think in new ways. After you read it you’ll take a second look at Frank and say, Hey… Maybe this outrageous violin playing social norm destroying bodybuilder is on to something.. 

Follow Frank on YouTube or Instagram

You are the Average of the 5 People Closest to You

Average of the 5 people

Humans are wired to recognize and mimic group norms. If our closest contacts are bitter and angry, we’ll adopt that way of thinking. Our brain doesn’t care which mindset helps to achieve our potential. All it cares about is mimicking whatever behavior ensures we don’t get rejected from the group (a death warrant for the thousands of years that we lived in the wild).

This simple truth is why it’s important to choose who we let into our lives. Here’s what James Swansick, a well known proponent of healthy living and sobriety, has to say,

You will be the average of the five people you spend the most time around. If you’re consistently surrounding yourself with friends who bring you down or don’t share your perspective on life, you’re not going to get to where you actually want to be.

The Gently Boiled Water

A bad influence is difficult to notice when the changes are so gradual

A danger is that we’re rarely aware of how other people are influencing us. It’s not a radical event, like jumping into a freezing lake. It’s more similar to the frog in room temperature water, who never notices that he’s being boiled to death. A group can take months or years to influence a person, but it will happen eventually. Here what others can affect,

  • Your salary and your expectations about your future salary / promotions
  • Whether you’re pessimistic or optimistic about the future
  • How hard you work and your level of self-efficacy
  • What kind of food you eat, whether you do drugs or binge drink
  • How much you exercise
  • How long you’re willing to stick with a difficult project
  • Which laws you consider it acceptable to break
  • Etc.

Clearly others have a massive influence on us. I’m not the only one who believes this. Here are some notable gentlemen talking about it.

The Next Step

Look at the people in your life and ask: what kind of influence is this person having on me? Maybe there are a few people who you need to spend less time with. Maybe you need to make a proactive effort to bring new people into your life. Ideally the 5 people closest to you are positive, ambitious and supportive. It might not always work out like that, however, it’s a good ideal to move towards.

Using Warren Buffet’s 25-5 Rule to Reach Mastery

Warren Buffet 25 5 Rule

Warren Buffet is currently the third richest person in the world so when I heard about his 25-5 rule, I took it seriously. It makes intuitive sense, especially as it relates to the pursuit of greatness.

The 25-5 Rule

1. Write down a list of the 25 things that you want to accomplish in life. For me, a few included:

  • Speak five languages fluently
  • Ski a black diamond hill
  • Travel to 50 countries
  • Become an accomplished chess player
  • Learn how to code in C+
  • Etc.

One doesn’t reach Buffet’s level of success without a laser focus in a small number of directions

Keep going until you have 25 things that you want to do before you die. These should be tasks that take a considerable amount of time (become a chess champion), not things that can be done in a weekend (beat your brother at chess). Now that you have your list, circle the five goals that are the most important to you and…

2. Spend your life doing those five things, forget about the other twenty..

The 5 you’ve chosen are your most important goals and they should receive all of your attention. If you work on all 25 things you’ll never become great at any of them. Of course, if you accomplish your top five goals you can always work your way down the list. The mistake is to focus on too many things and not do any of them exceptionally. As Angela Duckworth says in her exceptional book Grit:

It soon became clear that doing one thing better and better might be more satisfying than staying an amateur at many different things.

If you find this idea intriguing you can find out more about Buffet’s 25-5 rule on Jamesclear.com

How to Turn Social Media into a Productivity Tool

Using social media to be productive

Social media is a waste of time and it can make you feel like shit. However, becoming an internet recluse isn’t really a good option. That’s why I’ve turned my social media accounts into productivity tools. This is surprisingly easy to pull off with the following two steps..

  1. Stop following 95% of the people you know. Between Facebook and Instagram I only follow about 15 people that I’ve met in real life.
  2. Start following successful, motivating people. Basic criteria: if you would live that person’s life and they post good content, follow them.

Who do you think it’s better to follow, Mario Tomich or your high school buddy?

When you do this two things happen. First, you use social media less. Your feed isn’t updated as much and you end up checking it less frequently. Second, when you go on it you’ll only see posts by inspirational people. It’s really a massive improvement! If you’re not sure where to start, I’ll list some cool Instagram accounts that I follow.

How different would your experience be if every time you opened up Instagram you saw posts from these people, instead of your high school buddy getting drunk?

Wade Alters Teaches you How to find Your Passion

Wade Alters has had a lasting impact on my life. Back in the day he wrote a post,

How to Become an Avid Reader: Increase Your Brain Power By 1000%

This article marked a turning point when I stopped dabbling and started reading all-the-fucking-time. That was three or four years ago and the impact has been immense. Apart from that, Wade has influenced my life in two major ways.

1. Increased Confidence with Women

This must become your new reality

There are two words which can radically change the way you interact with women. Ready for it? They are,

I’m awesome. 

So simple, so effective. The idea is that you replace all of your negative self talk with those two words. In your daily life you should never say,

I’m so bad with girls” or “Girls never like me“.

Instead, say “I’m awesome“. Negative talk is self-reinforcing. If you tell yourself bad things then bad things will continue to manifest. If you cut the bullshit and replace it with positive self talk, positive things will start to manifest. You won’t change your mental programming overnight but you will change it eventually.

As that happens, girls will pick up on it and treat you better. This reinforces the reality that “I’m awesome” and perpetuates a beautiful upwards spiral. That’s the opposite of the unnecessary downwards spiral that most guys are stuck in.

2. Creating an Ideal Future 

Wade’s content is great because organized and extremely thorough. His paid material is full of pragmatic advice that really works. If you do the exercises and follow Wade’s instructions, you’ll have the opportunity to create an awesome life plan (discover your ideal future). With that plan you can put your heart into your work because you realize how your current actions take you closer to your idealized life.

While the content is dense the payoff is massive! In the last six months Wade has helped me to develop a clear plan for my future which is something that I’ve never had before.

Wade’s Background

Wade has made the transition from “player” to life coach

At 25 Wade was pursuing a masters degree and dating a woman he had met in high school. He was set to follow society’s standard path: get a good job, have some kids and retire at 65. Then his girlfriend dumped him and he had to figure out how to get laid.

He discovered Real Social Dynamics and quickly starting mentoring with a coach. Within a year he was hooking up with gorgeous women and working for RSD as an instructor. He traveled around the world for years, hanging out in clubs, sleeping with stunning women and teaching other guys to do the same.

Nearing 30, Wade transitioned into lifestyle mastery and coaching. I think this awesome background is the reason Wade resonates well with me. He started from the bottom, learned success with women, how to build a business, how to be an effective coach, and now he’s putting out fantastic content at an affordable price.

Lifestyle Development Content

This is a preview of some of the courses available in “The Syndicate”

The best deal is The SyndicateThis is a *large* collection of videos from Wade’s various programs, I think there’s 20+ hours of content available on demand. All of it is organized into various programs, I.e. networking, dating, building confidence, time management, discovering your passion, persuasion, etc.

All videos are meticulously laid out and the production value is high. There is a large difference between this content and what you can expect to find on the average YouTube channel. Hell, even a good YouTube channel. At $47 a month I think the price is justified. You can cancel at any time and Wade is always adding new content.

Get Involved with Wade

Wade has a number of videos available on his YouTube channel. These give you a taste of his style. However, if you find any of the content to be fluffy, don’t think that translate to the paid products. The free videos are the bread sticks. The paid videos are the steak, shrimp, salad, champagne and chocolate cake. Wade also posts on his website, including a regular podcast. If you take the time to learn from Wade I’m sure that you’ll get as much value from him as I have.

Jocko Willink: Navy SEAL & Leader of Men

Throughout this article I will reference this interview that Jocko Willink did with Tim Ferriss. Whenever I bring in a quote I will indicate the time that it occurred in the podcast, I.e. (38:14). 

Jocko Willink is a musclebound former Navy SEAL but he speaks like a college professor. I found out about him through a Tim Ferriss podcast. I was expecting good war stories but Jocko offered so much more. I found his greatest idea to be this,

Discipline equals freedom.

This is the title of his upcoming book, but also a mantra to live by. For instance, between reading, writing, shooting YouTube videos, going out to meet women and studying German, I have 8 to 12 hours of work a day. If I have the discipline to get everything done on time, I have the freedom to relax, watch Netflix or drink some beer. Without discipline I end up losing the freedom to relax.

Appreciate Life When it’s Good

Jocko (left) as a Navy SEAL

When asked what advice he would give a younger version of himself (2:27:30), Jocko said,

I’m in Ramadi. Looking back now, I would say, relish that moment. Which I did… But I would say relish that moment.

For Jocko, leading SEALs into combat was the highlight of a lifetime. We have different highlights in our lives but the message is the same: appreciate life as it’s unfolding. If life is good, enjoy it! The universe loves to throw curve balls and circumstances can quickly change. This brings up another important point.

Acknowledge Your Dark Side and the Worst of Humanity

Without acknowledging the worst of humanity, we cannot appreciate the best

The Holocaust is an example of an event where regular people did horrible things. After World War II psychologists were struck by the normalcy of many of the perpetrators. Average citizens ended up as camp guards who were capable of repeated cruel action. To a greater or lesser extent all people have this dark side, to deny it is to deny reality. A better option is to acknowledge what we’re capable of. The person who accepts their dark side has control. A person who doesn’t accept it is open to domination.

Jocko advocates understanding your dark side and understanding the depths of hell which humanity creates. His podcast focuses on (among other things) war and genocide. This can be depressing (especially this episode, holy shit..) However, Jocko believes that in order to appreciate the beauty of humanity one must acknowledge the ugly.

I’ve found that this Yin and Yang idea holds true in a variety of circumstances. Sometimes I’ll talk to a couple of dozen girls and end up feeling unattractive and undesirable (AKA like a piece of shit). These nights suck but they pave the way for future nights where I’m on fire. Working out is breaking down the muscle so that it can grow stronger. In poker, losing money on a pot teaches you to become numb to loss. We can see this same idea manifest in all sorts of disciplines.

*Jordan Peterson also talks about embracing your dark side in this video.

Leadership in the Military

To be effective one must lead by example & listen

Soldiers do not follow every order to a T because someone of a higher rank gave the order. Men follow orders when the leader sets a strong example and lets soldiers participate in planning. If the leader (boss) creates a plan and orders soldiers to carry it out, once they run into a snag then they’ll be less likely to adapt on the fly.

Jocko also gives the example of soldiers in Vietnam who, when tasked with a pointless mission, would walk 100 meters outside the wire, camp for 2 hours then return. Jocko states that (1:50:40),

If I’m going to get you to do stuff, I need to lead you. I can’t just order you to do it.

When Tim Ferriss asks what makes a good leader (54:30), Jocko replies,

The immediate answer that comes to mind is humility. You’ve got to be humble and you’ve got to be coachable. When I was running training we would fire a couple of leaders from every SEAL team because they couldn’t lead. And 99.9% of the time it wasn’t a question of their ability, it was a question of their ability to listen.

Learning More About Jocko

Jocko is a prolific character. He’s done several podcasts with Tim Ferriss, including the one I used for quotes throughout this article. In a different podcast he answers questions submitted by listeners. Joe Rogan has also done two podcasts with Jocko, available here and here. My favorite episode of his podcast is an interview he did with Mike Thornton, I cried multiple times listening to it. Finally, he co-authored the New York Times bestseller: Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win.